OIL 017: An Interview with Justin and Joe of AdsenseFlippers.com

OIL 017: AN INTERVIEW WITH JUSTIN AND JOE OF ADSENSEFLIPPERS.COM

Trent: Hey everybody this is Trent with the Online Income Lab and Niche Site Mastery. We’re here with another episode of the podcast I’ve done enough of this now I don’t even remember what episode this is but I think it’s episode no. 17.

On the show with me today we have Justin Cooke and Joe Magnotti from adsenseflippers.com and I’m sure a number of my readers have probably heard these guys before and they’ve been doing just a terrific job of honing in on this whole business of flipping adsense sites. And so I really wanted to get them on the show to ask them more questions about that. I know as my sites get older there’s more that I’m gonna wanting to be selling. And I know that a lot of my readers and Niche Site Mastery members would probably benefit from hearing what it is their doing, how they’re doing it, what their suggestions are and guidelines for us.

So with that said, Justin and Joe thank you very much and welcome to the show.

Justin Cooke: Hey Trent, Justin here. Thanks for having us. Really appreciate it.

Joe Magnotti: Yeah love being on. Thanks a lot Trent.

T: No problem. So you guys, we just talked a little bit before we started recording, you’re over in the Philippines. What city are you in over there?

J: We’re in Davao City. It’s on the south. It’s on the island of Mindanao, the third largest city here in the Philippines behind Manila and Cebu.

T: Interesting! I’ve never been to the Philippines personally so I can’t say that I’d say “oh yeah I know where that is” but I think one of you is from New York and one of you is from California before you moved over, is that right?

J: Yeah Joe’s originally from New York and I’m from California. And I lived in France for probably 14 years. We got a couple of different businesses together. The real estate industry that I’ve mentioned before and then more recently in the local SEO space. And then we started an outsourcing company here in Davao after working with a virtual agent. And eventually outsourced ourselves and started our outsourcing company here based in Davao City.

T: So your foray into internet marketing and in particular the whole adsense flippers concept, before we dive in to that I think I know I’m interested, how did that get started?

J: Well it’s interesting. With our outsourcing company we started to lose a few clients. And we’ve lost some agents. So we had these skilled trained agents that were fantastic but we had no work for them and I knew that we would eventually get more clients to basically pay their salaries and we needed an interm solution for that. So we started looking around and I had the idea that well we can create niche sites and monetize them with adsense and it could at least pay their salaries. We can keep them on board for 3-6 months until there’s another customer that we can apply them too and have them earning their keep again. So we started that off in December of 2010 and I put in a bunch of hours, our agents put in a bunch of hours and we made a total of I think $33.

J: Yeah I was laughing at him the whole time coz I said “I told you so”. This adsense thing doesn’t work out. It’s just full of get rich quick scheme millionaire makers, you know it’s not a real business model.

J: Yeah so we’re not even the typical like you know product creators or you know affiliate marketers, like that’s not really our gig. We’re more traditional business and then we started to get into this and I guess we started to join the ranks of internet marketing, a more traditional internet marketing. And a couple of months later we started doing more and more of these sites and they started making more money, real money. And we started saying “Wow, I wonder if we can”, we reached the point where we needed to raise more money to expand. If we keep creating more sites we’re costly putting more money and the adsense revenue wasn’t coming along fast enough for us to continue to expand the process. So Joe & I we’re actually in a bit of argument disagreement there. I said “look, let’s scale the hell out of this. Let’s add a ton of sites. And he said wow I don’t wanna do it out of our pockets.” So we said how can we, what’s the way around this business problem and the idea was to sell some off to fund future growth.

J: Yeah and that’s what was the real like lie pole moment for me at least. Now you’re talking about taking sites that cost us $40-50 to make and sell it in an auction for as much as $200 or $250. So that’s a really good multiple to see in a couple of months. And if you package a few of those sites together you’re talking about a several thousand dollars for one auction. And then the auction format itself is very surprisingly fun. Anybody who used Ebay or something like that knows that as you watch things go higher and higher and higher and you know how much money you put in it’s a very nice format.

J: Trent, you just had a recent sale at flippa I know that has climb up, how did you like it? Did you enjoy the process?

T: Yeah actually I was very pleasantly surprised with the outcome. For readers rather listeners who didn’t read that blog post I sold I think around 28 or 29 sites. They were some of the first sites that I ever built. They weren’t adsense sites. They were in the photography niche and they sold for I think about at least $3,000 and the buyer that bought them who’s probably listening to this podcast actually was already in the photography niche. Most of these sites were PR2 so I kinda think he bought them for a combination of valuable link juice in there, I built a ton of backlinks as well. There was a mailing list and there was some earnings as well so it was a whole bunch of value for someone who was already in that niche and more of an expert than I was. So yeah that was kinda cool. And it’s definitely when I discovered you guys, if you watched any of my sales video or if you’ve read my stuff for a while you’ll hear me talk about this build 10 sell 6 keep 4 model. And that’s really I gotta credit both of you guys for putting that idea in my head. Coz I was looking at the same business problem as you. I wanna scale the heck out of my adsense portfolio but I don’t wanna keep writing checks. Normally I’m sure members of the Niche Site Mastery. I mean I have sold a business. I actually had a fair amount of money to kind of lie around and I thought well obviously not everybody is in that situation so I gotta come up with a solution that will allow them to say start off with maybe a thousand bucks but then not have to contribute a bunch more money into the portfolio. Especially for folks that have, I don’t wanna make a joke of you guys’ spouses, but when someone’s married and you’ve got a partner who’s not necessarily on board in the internet dreams and they say “wow you know you could do this for a while but we need to start to see results.” I knew from all the coaching that I’ve done they really had a solid handle on the average demographic of my customers and a lot of them were guys in their late 30’s to 50’s and a lot of them were married and so I thought “well man, I really need to also figure out a way to get them a quicker return on their investment.” And there’s ladies too don’t get me wrong so please don’t get offended ladies. It’s just that there’s more guys that’s why I’m using them as an example. They needed a way for them to get that money coming back in meaningful chunks so that the spouse be it man or woman was able to go “oh alright. You’re on to something maybe we can do more of this.”

J: Yeah that’s probably a good thing that you have a spouse to kinda counter balance that. I mean Joe and I are business partners but it is like a marriage sometimes where we get frustrated or argue with each other about directions or that type of thing. But yeah it forced us to be innovative and come up with a creative solution to be able to fund the growth which I think ultimately was helpful for our business.

J: Yeah and that stands for the outsourcing background that we had where we kinda have a policy that each project needs to stand on its own 2 legs. We can’t have a customer come in and pay us for project that doesn’t make money even maybe so that the other projects are profitable and pay for that one. It doesn’t make sense to do that.

J: I like your idea Trent. You’re talking about being a thousand in and then kind of being at lay and then trying to get to fund itself. We were a bit further than that. I think we were probably 8 to 10,000 in before we started selling sites but it’s the same philosophy. If it were just me with maybe 1 va credits I might have done that approach. Maybe 2,000 I was willing to risk on it. And you really just gotta put your head down and do it as you know Trent. Just knock out the sites. It’s not glamourous, it’s not exciting.

J: When you get to the threading water line and your sites are producing enough revenue to cover your cost that’s when you know you’ve made it. That’s just a matter of skill and time and you’ll be able to make it there. And selling sites or flipping sites just gets you there faster.

J: It’s like pruning money.

T: Yeah it is and we’re gonna dive into that in a second but there’s another point here that I wanna make before we move on. We talked about starting off with $1,000 or $2,000 you know one of the things, and having, and you guys I’m sure appreciate this because you run a non-internet marketing business as I did before I got into this. One of the things that I think is very bad about our industry and this is I think the course creators are really to blame for this, we send this, I’m not gonna say we coz if you watch my videos I don’t send this message. They send this message like this is this pot of gold business that you can start for $50. And there’s no, what a load of crap! I mean to start a business where you can make a $100,000 a year for 2 grand even? That’s ridiculously good! But all these internet marketers they convince them oh you don’t need any money and you can start with next to nothing and you’re gonna be a gazillionaire overnight. It’s such a load of crap! So for the listeners that our out there you know a thousand or $2,000 is nothing in the grand scheme of the opportunities in this business that are possible.

So let’s talk a little bit about those opportunities. So let’s say guys that someone started today. They gave a $1,000 and they built, coz for a thousand bucks for 50 bucks a site you can build 20 sites for that if you’re outsourcing and all. I use that I don’t know guys if you disagree but I know in my model sites can be launched for 50 bucks. I do it all the time.

J: Yap.

T: So let’s walk through that process. We got 20 sites. How many of them do you think are gonna end up being successful, average and stinkers first out of all, out of 20? Coz they’re not all gonna be successful.

J: Out of 20 we’ll probably have 4 that earn next to nothing. Will probably have 4 that earn extremely well that let’s say you have $15 to $20 a month or better and the rest are gonna be somewhere between the $5 to $15 a month range.

J: Yeah let’s say the 4 actually may even earn a little bit more than that like $20 plus. Because those are gonna be the majority of your revenue, right? That 30% is 80% of your revenue. And that’s kinda how it works.

J: And that’s on a large scale I mean we built close to a thousand sites. So we can say that with some confidence. But again you know there are gonna be mistakes made early on the process. If you are just starting out you may screw up on your first 10 and those are all losers.

T: Absolutely.

J: And then you realize what happened to your keyword research and get back. That’s what we did actually. I targeted some broad instead of exact match stuff. And you know I kinda screwed up and made some mistakes there but…

T: How about this one? Did you ever look on the advertiser competition bar and think maybe that’s SEO competition I’ll pick the low one the one with barely green bar.

J: Yeah. These are the ones where no advertiser’s going. Or go after stuff that’s like way too difficult for you rank for. We got that too. There are some growing pits and that’s why honestly you talk about starting laying $1,000 or $2,000.You know your first couple of sites you may wanna do as much of it yourself that you can and not and spend as little as possible because you know those are gonna be donkeys. You know that you’re gonna mess up the first couple so just row with that.

J: Yeah I also want to say there’s a quantity of scale here right coz we’re talking about percentages. Well you can be very unlucky over the short term. I use a quick analysis on that poker, you could be very unlucky over the short term and that 20% can actually wind up being a 100%. So if you only create 5 sites and none of them work and you’re like totally frustrated it’s because your sample sites are too small.

T: Bingo!

J: When you start to get up to 50 to 100 sites now your sample sites are large enough with this viable niche sites that the percentages start to take over.

T: Yeah I couldn’t agree more. Out of the last, I think it’s 27 or 28 sites that I’ve launched, I’ve got one that’s an absolute freaking superstar and then I’ve got a bunch there in the you know kind of the average range. You know they’re earning, the niche sites are all 60 days old or less, I think there’s, and maybe some are a little older and some a little younger coz I didn’t launch them all 29. Anyway, I got a bunch there like you know a buck or 2 bucks a day. And then I got a bunch that are 50cents a day so I definitely agree that the results you’re speaking of are pretty typical of the results that I’m getting and like I say every once in a while you get one that’s just an absolute rockstar. And know that like Spencer over at the nichesitespursuit in one of his recent post he had 20 sites and he gave a 90 day report I think it was, and one of them was killing it because 50% of the revenue made 900 bucks a month, some ridiculous some like that. And that is a by-product of doing a quantity of sites. I really don’t encourage anyone to just start off with just 1,2,3,4 because the odds are you’re gonna have 4 donkeys coz you don’t know what you’re doing.

So let’s go, did you get before I jump into another question, did you guys say something? Did you want to jump in with a comment?

J: Yeah I just say all the people are doing it a little bit differently. Like we do all with really kind of minimal sites, minimally viable sites where they’re just enough. And so our sites are small earners. Now there are sites that carry version method where he’s creating $1,000 a month sites in a regular basis or path plan with his site creating $1200 to $1500 a month sites and some of Spencer’s sites, Spencer is probably in between what we do or what most other guys do. So there’s multiple race in this cap, the reason why we’re really after small micro niche sites to start you get a quicker idea on the return. So we didn’t wanna wait 9 months until we saw whether or not the plan made sense. We want to start with really small sites and get a 3 month, 4 month idea on what’s gonna work out and that kinda kept us much more motivated if you’re just starting off having to wait 9 to 12 months to see a return that makes sense. That’s just too tough you know.

J: And also you say Trent the interesting thing about what you’re saying about 1 site is an absolute superstar at 27, you know it’s true for us too. We have a site that it doesn’t even rank in Google at all with regular images, regular Google not saying, but man it’s a superstar which makes $200 a month. And there’s really no rhyme or reason to it and sometimes you just have to create enough sites that you stumble across a really lucky niche.

J: With Yahoo and Bing traffic and that’s just the thing that just killed it.

T: Yeah absolutely. Okay so where I was going before we got to this tangent coz I wanna walk everyone through. So we’ve created this, we spent a $1,000, we made 20 sites, we got 4 donkeys, we got 4 superstars and we’ve got 12 averages, so I did some quick math while we’re doing that and that equates to about $200 a month in adsense income. So on a $1,000 investment that’s still a pretty phenomenal return on investment if you didn’t do anything more after that. For $200 a month, honestly it’s not even enough to cover the cost of the software you’re gonna need because you’re gonna need keyword research software, you’re gonna need a couple for backlinking tools. So at $200 a month which I’m assuming you’re at that level guys with about 90 days that sort of reasonable?

J: Yeah that’s about right.

T: So you happen to put all this money out of pocket for a 90 day period and then you’re kinda up on $200. So let’s talk about this whole flipping model. So how soon into the process considering we’re at day 0 do you start looking at okay we need to start selling some of these sites?

J: Well what we did in the past we wait for the sites to get to you know full earning potential which is not necessarily the case but when they’re earning enough or when their earnings start to stabilize a bit, the ranking starts to stabilize and then it only takes about 90 days. So and then we wanna make sure we have a couple of months worth of earnings so people can live back and go okay this site’s stable, its top earnings is good so maybe 60 days after that. So you’re looking at 150 or 180 days out of being able to flip the sites. You can do it earlier but you’re gonna have less history in your income and it’s better to have at least a few months of worth of history of income before you can sell the sites. Or I say really about 6 months.

J: Yeah that provides a good reliability stand point to your bidders or your potential buyers and they really can say “okay this guy’s just not trying to get in and quickly escape there or something”.

J: I’d really say what’s critical too is that if you’re really planning on making this a business this is your business so it’s not like you’re just trying to get on to flipping and say “look I’ve got 8 days of earnings which will strap it out to X amount per month, right”. Coz like you know it doesn’t stabilize. If it goes down from there well you don’t wanna be building out a list of buyers or group of buyers. They will feel like you scam them. Our long term reputation on flipping and our website is way more important than any sale for a couple thousand dollars.

T: I couldn’t agree more on what you said about reputation takes a lifetime to build and seconds to destroy and that’s very, very true. So we’re at about 6 months and now let’s talk about expectations of, let’s just use our sample here again. So we’ve got 4 sites that let’s say we’re making $20 each and we’ve got 12 sites that we’re making $10 each So there’s our $200 a month coz we’ve got 4 donkeys. What are you gonna do now? How are you gonna package them up? How are you gonna split them up? Which ones you’re gonna sell? Which ones you’re gonna keep?

J: What we did previously is we would take a package of maybe 1 pretty good site like the higher end sites, a couple of the mid-range sites, maybe 1 or 2 of the lower end sites and package them together. Then maybe we’ll just take 5 or 6 sites together and make sure that between the 5 or 6 of them the earnings are all stable and there’s some opportunity for growth with the particular buyer. So once we’ve got that package together we look at your earnings for the past 60 or 90 days. We then take all that information and extremely detail it in our auction copy of flipper. So we lay out everything. We pull back the curtain. We open the kimono and show them everything.

J: Yeah even the bad parts. Even whatever it may be, the rank in Google if it’s verified in Google, its adsense screen shot. We walk them through every little piece of the site, you know, what we did to get the sites where they’re at, what the rankings are even if the site doesn’t rank. All that sort of things going on.

T: Yeah and again I wanna fully credit you guys for teaching me how to do that because just as Justin made a comment to my post “gee I recognize that flipper sales copy from somewhere”. That’s where you recognized it from. I was just borrowing your stuff.

J: Everyone takes a copy. We take some information that we like from some auctions and put it into another. And we did the same thing. We took about 3 or 4 different people with very good auction copy and kinda molded it together into ours. I mean really the copy you won’t have lots of information there obviously but you want it to be extremely comfortable with you too. I think that’s the key. I think it’s like we put in here’s a link to my LinkedIn page. I’m not like some random guy in Pakistan trying to dump off limits sites on you or dump some sites on you. When you can look me up here’s my stuff, here’s our website. We can explain the process. We’re extremely open about that. And then it sparks much more confidence in dealing with us.

J: Yeah we respond to all the comments. We respond to any bidders. We make a follow up message on flipper. We make sure to make sure to communicate with them and make that a paramount of our strategy on flipper.

T: Which you know this probably won’t come as a shock to anyone but that’s not an internet marketing secret – transparency and credibility is just a good business practice no matter what business that you’re in. So now what about we’ve packed a list, say we’ve got this package of 5 or 6 sites. So we’ll say that we’ve got 1 of those sites is a $20 a month site, and let’s say we have 6 in the package. And let’s say that 5 of them are a $10 a month site and then one of them is a no dollar a month site. So what’s that, we got $50, $70 a month, is that what we’re selling roughly?

J: Yeah the way we sell it, the one with zero we probably wouldn’t sell. It has to be making probably $3-4 or more a month to sell it. Maybe make it a package of 7 sites with $70 a month.

J: Yeah that’s a pretty good idea. Usually the sweet spot on flipper is anywhere from $90 to $120 a month is what we’ve experimented with. But for the reasons of this example let’s just say $70 a month.

T: Okay so what is the realistic expectation of what that package is going to sell for and then we’ll dive into you know what were some of the best practices in the auction? But let’s go with the conclusion first.

J: Yeah that’s definitely gonna depend on your reputation. Typical adsense sites can go through anywhere from 12 – 15 x. Now with somebody like us with a lot of experience, a lot of history, all good news on flipper, we get 20 – 25 x. And when I say x I mean monthly revenue. 20 – 25 times $70.

J: So we’re looking at for $70 a month at least $1400.

T: Wow! So that’s the last month’s revenue or do you take at the average of the last 3 months revenue or is it just the last month’s?

J: We base on the last 30 days. We could get 90 days like our 30 and 60 are pretty steady but the previous 30 days before that maybe a little bit off because maybe 1 or 2 of the sites are newer. So it may have been like let’s say last 30 days like $74. Last 60 days is like $142. And last 90 is like a $170. Did you get what I mean?

T: Yeah. Okay so I just wanna make sure that everyone really understands what just happened here because this is a phenomenal return of investment. We started off with a $1,000 for our brand new business thing that we didn’t know anything about. A thousand bucks which could be a bad weekend in Vegas. And then 6 months later we’ve got we’ll say let’s go on a little low and let’s just say that we got what’s 15 x 70 is a $1,050.

J: Yeah let’s say a thousand bucks.

T: A thousand bucks, okay. So within 6 months we’ve actually that’s just about a third of our sites. We’ve actually created $3,000 in asset value coz if we sold everything we could get 3 grand for it. So we’ve tripled our money in 6 months. Find a stock market where you can do that and sign me up. However, we didn’t sell them all. We’ve got our $1,000 of working capital back. We still have roughly a $130 a month coming in which if we chose to sell that it’s worth another $2,000. So to me for a business that you can start with very little money. Notice I’m not saying no money. And you can start it and run it for pretty much anywhere in the world where you’ve got internet connection that doesn’t require a high level of expertise that’s a pretty darn good deal.

J: Yeah I mean we travel a bit. We’ve done this from in our hotel rooms in Singapore recently. We run to Villa and Bali we’re doing some keyword research there. I mean literally if you have internet connection you can do this from anywhere. And the returns as you’re mentioning are phenomenal. Like as our investment strategy it’s insane. Now it’s not without risk so you know and this is one thing we struggle a bit Trent is just because as it work for us it may or may not work for someone else even though they follow the exact same process. Now we’re finding that some people that do follow our process are having success. It’s a little early. But I worry about saying that it for sure will work for you. But it seems to be. I mean you’re following some other process. We’re following our process. Spencer of Niche Pursuits is somewhere himself. It seems to be a repeatable model.

T: Yeah I tend to believe that business is much like baking a cake for lack of a better thing. If you really follow the recipe exactly you’re very likely to turn out with a similar or very similar result. But of course in the interest of the FTC’s guidelines we’re not out here saying “hey this is absolutely gonna work for you”. But if you do the things that we do in the way that we do them I think it’s pretty reasonable to say that you’re gonna get a similar result.

J: Exactly yeah.

J: Yeah and then you know you might find along the way something that works a little bit better for you and the way you wanna approach your business. So I think that’s very important and I think that’s why you can read all the e-books and listen to all the gurus you want but if you don’t go out there to get your hands dirty and sit there and do it a hundred times you’re never really gonna know.

J: Yeah that’s you talked about earlier Trent you talked about like a people saying “yeah 5 bucks and I’m gonna be a millionaire”. I think the bigger lie may be you know 5 minutes and you’re gonna be a millionaire. It takes some actual work so this people are gonna, and I’m sure some of your listeners have jobs and doing this on the side. This may take some of their weekends. This may take some of their nights really hammering it out. And that’s kind of the lumps that come with internet marketing right. We’ve all done it. But once you get a rolling, once you get to a critical mass then it’s just gravy. It’s just repeating the process over and over again and scaling it.

T: And that’s not just the lumps with internet marketing. That’s the lumps with starting any business and I’ve I think there’s a blog post that I wrote called personal desperation and it basically comes down to you’re not gonna be successful, I mean if you have a job and you’re living the quote unquote regular life you only have so much time in the day. I mean you have family commitments, you need to eat, you need to sleep, you need exercise so you’re gonna pay a price for going out. If you’re not willing to pay the price just don’t even, just stop listening to this podcast. Don’t buy any more books on how to be successful in business and be happy where you are because it just, it takes extra work. That’s just the reality of it. But I, myself, my own life has been that example and I’m sure that’s been the same for you guys.

J: Yeah the crazy benefits though are key. I mean you can travel, you can work anywhere, you can have a whole team on doing this on basically remote control. I mean those are really tangible benefits that are killer for a lifestyle.

T: Absolutely.

J: And the auction stuff is really nice too. And then I hate to say it again but sitting there and just watching your sites go up and up in value. And sometimes you just get sites that go for a lot more than you expected them to go for. And your eyes drop by to your head a little bit and when the guy pays you via paypal you’re like “huh, is this really great”.

J: That’s just awesome.

T: There’s nothing wrong with getting paid. So I wanna interject another of my personal view points here for the listeners on viability and diversification. So Justin and Joe commented earlier that they build kinda like the barely, the sites that are just good enough.

J: Minimum viable websites.

T: Minimum viable websites. There is nothing wrong with that strategy. I wanna say it’s not all you should do however. So if you look at this scenario when you’re picking your keywords in your niches you may say well I’m gonna pick a combination of sites that I know are gonna be minimum viable sites but I’m also gonna pick some sites that have the potential to become authority sites. Sites with a hundred pages or 200 pages. And then what you do is those ones are gonna be, they’re gonna take longer to grow up, they’re gonna take longer to start having the cash flow that you want or in theory there that’s not necessarily always the case. And then you take the profits that you get from these sites that you’re selling. And you re… you don’t go buy a new shoes or a TV or something stupid like that. You reinvest that money into more content and more link building for these sites that are gonna be around for a while. So I don’t know if you guys know but I have a site called howtocleananything.com which I did not build by the way but I did buy.

J: Yeah you bought it. I’ve seen that one.

T: The thing makes $7 – 900 a month. Last month it really killed it because it got picked up by a syndicated radio show as their site of the day. But it makes this money on auto pilot every month and it’s just the greatest thing going and wouldn’t I like to have 10 of those. But the point is you’re not gonna build a site like that in 5 minutes. I mean this has got 650 posts there. And it’s been around for a while. But I see no reason in the world why you can’t find yourself a great writer who’s willing to write good content for you and start adding a post a month and just keep posting and posting. And the more it’s gonna be a snowball. The more content that you have the more earnings that you have, the more earnings you have the more investable earnings that you have and the faster you can make the whole machine go.

J: Yeah you know we have people that ask us and we repeat our strategy of viable sites, the ones that are able to be turned into more authority sites. They’re not like so micro niche that they can’t be expanded. These ones are great for expanding and we tell the buyers “look you’ve got a lot of opportunity to do that”. The problem is, well our problem is that you know you can ask the same thing “why don’t we take our $20 a month sites right now and build those aptly 3 in a row month’s site”. And the honest truth is we don’t really know how to do it. It’s actually not something that we know like clockwork. So what we’ve found is that we’re good at this particular thing. We’re just getting these minimum sites out. As your niche site thing we’re working on that too. So we’re keeping some of our sites and expanding on them and trying to build them out as well because for us it just makes a total sense if we can take this $20 a month site, build them up to a $150 a month sites. That’s insane value on the sale.

J: At the same time though McDonald’s didn’t try to be applebees. McDonald’s says we make cheeseburgers, we make them fast, we make them hot, we make them tasty. And that’s what we do with niche websites. We make small niche websites that make a little bit of revenue every month. They’re profitable and if you wanna buy them this is the price.

J: Yeah. Our long term business strategy probably involves us buying applebees. We’re holding out a separate brand but this is what we do and we’re good at it.

T: And there’s nothing wrong with that. I would probably what I call my most controversial blog post ever. I just wrote it and published it today. So if you guys read it after the show I’d love to hear your comments on it. But you need to diversify. Adsense, adsense niche sites it is a fantastic way to cut your teeth, to get to yourself to your first $1,000 a month if you’re not making any a month now. To learn about SEO, to learn about wordpress, to learn about outsourcing. And you’re gonna learn so much and then the by-product to follow that learning is you’re gonna see the business opportunities that you would have never found had you not started with just building little niche sites. So we’re not saying that this is the be all end all the only thing that you should ever do but if you’re listening to this and you’re not even making a 100 bucks a month yet online you’re probably not gonna find any easier way, in my opinion, to get to making your first $1,000 or making half selling a website or group of websites worth a $1,000. So you guys agree with that?

J: Yeah I think starting off we tried not to sell clickbank stock or using affiliate place coz it’s a much more difficult proposition. I think we need many niche adsense sites that are gonna give you a quicker return. So if you’re just starting off you’re looking for that go signal that oh my god this is gonna work idea. And I think this mini niche sites give you that in a shorter period of time.

J: Yeah and we get readers all the time that post and say “oh I wanna build a niche site around I wanna make money on the internet”. No you don’t coz that’s a very competitive niche. You wanna build around the lowest hanging fruit, theblueskiboot.net or whatever URL, that kind of thing.

J: That’s a really great way for you to test out your SEO skills, test out your content writing, test out your wordpress site creation and just kinda, you know you can make a mistake and it’s not a big deal. You know what I mean?

T: Correct!

J: If you want to start off with this 500 page masterpiece, right, and you don’t look that up, it’s gonna suck. It would be painful.

T: That’s what Spencer did. When he started off he said he was all over building big niche sites and if you go back I think to my very, very first podcast episode 001 he talks about “I just beat my head against the wall”. But I think he said it was about 2 years building this massive site and it was a complete waste coz he didn’t know what he was doing.

J: He had to have financial services or something like that.

T: Something like that, yeah. Alright so let’s talk about I wanna go back to the auction process. What do you think is the no. 1 mistake that people make when they go to do their first auction?

J: I think some people I know use the internet and try to remain in anonymous. For whatever reason they don’t want to put their name out there and kinda just want to remain behind their username and not putting themselves out there. That’s a huge mistake. I mean someone’s going to buy from you on flipper they wanna know that they’re buying from a real person. A guy sitting by a girl sitting behind her computer screen, a name, family, a real person. So don’t try to be anonymous. Yeah the internet kinda gives us that anonymity but you should avoid that especially if you’re dealing with people who are gonna be spinning their real hard earned money with you.

J: Yeah and I would say moving on to the actual auction process one of the, we see 2 big mistakes from rookie sellers on flipper. No. 1 is accepting high bids too quickly so they get a bid for $1500 when they’ve only had 2 other bids in the auction and that immediately bumps the minimum price up on the auction for $1500.

J: Let me back up a bit on that real quickly. We only start off our auctions at $1 no reserve. We can get in a bit to that in strategies in a couple of minutes but what you don’t want to do with our strategy is take a $1,000 bid 12 hours into the auction because you’re cutting out all those other bids that help you get to the top of the most active section which is the very huge section. So accepting a high bid early in our process which will go over is a bad idea.

J: And then the second thing is that we see that rookie people do all the time is there’s a low in the auction in bidding. There’s a lot of bidding in the beginning, a lot of bidding in the end. And what a lot of rookies do in the middle and sellers take, buyers, excuse me, take advantage of this is they contact you and say “oh there’s no bids coming in, why don’t you lower your buy it now and I’ll go ahead and buy your auction”. And therefore you leave your money on the table and you sell your sites, your package for a lot less than you normally would.

T: Wow! That’s terrific advice and you’ve alluded to this auction pricing strategy so why don’t we just segue right into that. And so let’s have you guys explain from starting it $1 no reserve to getting the maximum price. What is an overview of that process looks like?

J: Okay. So we were a bit of a wuss on our perks for auction. We put in a reserve I think so we’re not totally out there but surely after that what we did was we said ok. I’d sold on ebay previously in college. I’d sold some stuff and I noticed that anytime, if you’re selling a value, a site that has actual legitimate value meaning it’s making money or whatever, it’s gonna go for a fair price. So if you start off with a $1 with no reserve you encourage a ton of viewers and a ton of watchers. Everyone goes “wow! Maybe I can get a real steal on this deal”. And they’ll start watching it and checking it out. So ultimately you’ll be getting more bids and more watchers, more eyeballs on your auction. So when you start an auction with a $1 with no reserve all you want at that point is eyeballs. You wanna get as many eyeballs on the auction as humanly possible. And you’re gonna be able to do that by just to back that there’s a lot of social proof you have a ton of buyers or a ton of potential buyers.

T: Okay. And then what happens?

J: So there’s something we call the golden triangle of flipper which is basically this right? There are different sections you wanna get seen in. Early on you’re gonna be seen in the just listed section of flipper and then toward the end you’re gonna be seen in the ending soon section of flipper. Those are both kinda hotspots. Another section is the featured section. It’s a $50 add on and you can get on the first page of flipper. So you get to flipper.com and you’ll be seen in that section. We recommend doing that at least once maybe 2 or 3 times depending on how viable the auction is and normally within the 48 hour window towards the end. The other I think and that biggest place to be is the most active section. These are the auctions with the most amount of bids. To get on that page it normally takes about 15 bids or more. So that’s one of the main reasons to start the auction with a $1. What we do is hopefully we get a lot of low end bids so we get a $5 bid and then a $10 bid, a $20 bid, $25 bid. We’ve already got 5 or 6 bids and we’re still under the $40 level. That’s when we know the auction is gonna be ultimately successful and get us on that first page in the most active.

J: You need about 15 bids at least to be on the most active, the first page of the most active. And let me tell you that most active page that’s where buyers are looking because they figure other buyers are bidding on those auctions so those are the auctions that they wanna be interested in or they wanna bid on. It’s like a self-perpetrating process here and they start bidding on each other’s auctions and then an active auction will just keep rising up the ranks.

J: I’ll just say probably more than 80% of the auctions on flipper are not interesting. No one cares, no one will look at it. It’s not distinguishing at all. So it’s a way to balance. I do it myself. I get on the most active section and it automatically cuts to the crop. I know if there’s multiple people bidding on an auction there must be some kind of value there. There must be something there. It must be interesting to someone. And it lets me avoid having to go to the crappy stuff to get to the good stuff.

T: Absolutely. Well there’s nothing like social proof to help you along the way. Okay so you’re in the most active. You’re now down within 48 hours. Now what length of auction do you normally choose?

J: We normally go for about a week, normally 6-8 days. If it’s longer than that like 3 weeks or something some of the people might get on the initial look and then forget about that 3 weeks later. So I think that’s too long. I’d say under 8 days is ideal.

J: Yeah and the biggest thing is you wanna end on a weekday, usually a Monday thru Thursday. And you wanna end it in like the morning pst time. So this way if the auction does get extended it will still be doing working hours, waking hours when people are around and have access.

J: For anyone who doesn’t know flipper has bells up. Anytime a bidder comes in it automatically extends the auction up 4 hours. So there’s no way to snipe an auction at the end like in the last 30 seconds I can bid and win. For a cheaper price it automatically extends it for 4 hours. So when Joe talks about making sure it ends in the morning pacific standard time that means when someone bids there right at the end it will extend 4 more hours. For everyone going on their work day will have a chance to see it again and go “ohh let me put my bid in”, you know.

T: I did not know that. I did not know that little piece. Terrific! Because I took on ebay strategy with my auction. Ultimately mine sold on a buy it now. But I scheduled it at a time I wanted it to end. I think it was 6:00 pacific time so that would be 9:00 eastern time. I figured more than likely the customer would come from North America. I’m pretty sure it was a weekday but I wouldn’t know about that 4 hour extension.

J: Yes so they’ve been talking about luring that but from a seller’s perspective I think it’s great. I think it’s great overall. It makes the auction close for the right price. It gives the look that everyone has the opportunity to pick it up.

J: Yes and I think it shouldn’t be allowed especially when it comes to buying businesses. You shouldn’t be able to come in and just steal something in the last minute.

T: Yeah I agree. Okay so you started off with a $1 no reserve auction, 7 days it’s ending on a weekday in the morning and at some point within 48 hours to go you’re suggesting we spend $50 to get it into the featured section minimum of once and maybe as many as 3 times.

J: Yeah. But once your auction goes over a $1,000 the quicker you get there.

J: I think it’s a minimum of $50 bid.

J: Right. So if you get 1 more bid after it’s over a $1,000 that pays for the fact that you’ve featured it.

J: Exactly.

J: So it gets you a ton of eyeballs which ultimately got no reserve auction. You just want the eyeballs. If you get to this you’re going to get the buyer.

T: Okay. I’m just making feeble notes here coz I’m learning too much from you guys. Thank you for that.

J: No problem man.

T: Okay. So let’s go, and now is there anything else here on the auction topic or have we pretty much exhausted all your best strategies for the auction.

J: I think that’s it. One other thing I would say is especially when you’re starting off. Don’t put a buy it now because with a buy it now like you did photography sites, right?

T: Yeah.

J: So you did a network of photography sites. There may be a photographer out there that goes “oh my god you’re buy it now is insanely low for the value I get as a photographer.” Like for a photographer that gets way more money than that guy he may have bid way more. So especially like I love your example of by doing it all in time the same in general niche that someone might think that’s insanely valuable. I’d be willing to pay a lot more. So if you’re just starting off don’t put a buy it now just let the auction play out. We put buy it nows now because we’ve determined a pretty good spot for the buy it nows. We’ve raised it auction after auction and it kept going for the buy it now. So you know you’ve got pretty good like 22 to 25 x is a good buy it now. We think what happens is people gets on bidding and bidding and then it gets to like 18 x and someone here just wants it to reach to the 22 x to pay the buy it now.

J: Yes for us it’s a good way to get a couple of extra months out of the auction and basically cover our flippitys which is very nice.

T: Absolutely. Okay now I notice on your website it is where you guys sell sites that don’t go on flipper so are you selling more now on flipper or are you selling more on your own website?

J: We sold more on our own website and I have mix talks about this. Like by having packages on flipper we get thousands of views on every auction that we put up. And we’ve got a ton of people watching our username and stuff so when we put up an auction we get a ton of traffic to adsense flippers. So I don’t care about the fees for flipper but the use of eyeballs on adsense flippers as a branding tool is amazing and I really love that. But we found that a lot of people or some people would rather not have their information public so whenever you put an auction that you’re publicly releasing adsense screenshots and analytics and all these things that could ultimately be copied what we decided was for some buyers to offer them opportunity to not have that happen. So anyone who buys from our site is buying site unseen. They don’t know the keyword or the URL. They’re buying into the site without having that information released to them.

T: Which makes sense because there’s gonna be buyers with different appetites and those folks that are buying sites unseen obviously have range their stuff for a while they have a virtual relationship with them. There’s a high level of trust and they’re willing to say “hey I’m gonna put this in my paypal shopping cart coz I know these guys are the real deal and I’m not gonna get ripped off”.

J: Yeah a lot of our buyers from the buyers site page have ultimately come back and buy again. So we have a lot of repeat buyers.

J: Also one of the tip this one is on the flipping stuff we didn’t mention was you know with adsense flippers we have a pretty nice email list. We started the blog in May. And we’ve added just 2500 email subscribers in about 7 months. So when ever we have a flipper auction we email that information out just saying “hey look, buyers if you’re interested. If you’re not just disregard this email”. And then we put the stats in there. And we get a lot of views from that as well. So building a list outside of flipper that you’ve been direct to flipper to buy those stuff is completely worthwhile.

T: Absolutely. And you’ve got some terrific strategy. Okay so are there anything else before we shift gear coz we’re also running out of time? We’ve got 48 minutes here so far and I always like to wrap this up in under an hour. Are there anything else, best tools and resources, anything that you want to offer up and I’ll put links of course under the podcast. And for folks if you’re listening to this in your car it’s gonna be onlineincomelab.com/session017 (and I’m pretty sure) I’ll make sure it’s 017 for this episode. So guys are there any tools and resources that you want to highlight as being available?

J: Yeah we’re all kind of in the same world as yours so I mean aside from ourselves as I mentioned adsenseflippers.com you can go to our blog and read some of our strategies. Specifically go to the flipping websites and in the selling or buying tab you could find out more information about flipping business but you know Spencer from nichepursuits.com is fantastic. He gives great backlinking strategies and kinda goes through his entire process as well and between him and us for adsense sites I mean that’s really I mean that will get you there.

J: A detailed analysis from Spencer is great coz he backs everything up, research, numbers and spreadsheets and graphs so it’s really cool stuff over there. Very scientific approach and I love what he does. Highly recommend it.

J: And also we use I’m sure you praise it too but I love long tail pro. It’s Spencer’s keyword research tool. I was a huge market samurai guy who loved market samurai, I still do. But it got too slow unfortunately so we needed to speed through the keyword research and market samurai wasn’t gonna have it done so we switched to long tail pro and it’s been great for us.

T: Okay.

J: And the last thing, I don’t know if we’re gonna get to this Trent or not, but host sales support. Make sure you have a host sale strategy. We have a post about migration from one host to another. I walk you through it. I have screen shots. I have screencasts and video that walks you through a go daddy to go daddy transfer. So anyone out there who’s not technical can just watch the video and just do as I do and you can transfer your sites to your customer but make sure you have a plan to transfer sites and know how to do it before the auction’s over.

T: And that is actually my next question.

J: Let me tell you really quick. Also we have a podcast, the adsense flippers podcast, and in the month of December anyone who leaves us a review and subscribes to our podcast on iTunes is gonna be in the drawing for free sites from us. So we’re gonna be giving up one of our free sites, earning sites and pass on to one of our podcast subscriber. So take a look if you like this podcast. I’m sure you’ll like us there as well.

T: That’s an excellent idea. I think I have to do something similar. Terrific!

J: Yeah cool.

T: The other thing that I wanted to add is for the sale that I did I used managewp. I’m a big fan of managewp.com to assist me to manage all my sites. And it also makes the transfer process absolutely a breeze. For my, when I sold those 29 sites, all I did was I went to the registrar and had the URLs changed over to him and then he changed the name servers. And with managewp I have already backed up all the files and the databases and everything for him. And he bought with those in a dropbox folder and he had access to those zips. And then he restored it to his own host and once the name servers have changed and the propagation was done the transfer was complete and I just by a week or two later sent him an email saying “I’m got get these files off my servers” and he said “yeah no problem. Go ahead”. And the transfer (excuse me) was absolutely seamless. Really easy to do.

J: Yeah I love managewp. I handled the transfers along with my staff personally. The only thing I wanna add Trent is that you had probably a little bit more of advanced customer there. Sounds like to me. It’s possible that you could have a winner that doesn’t know anything. Nothing. So you’re gonna have to handle the setup on this hosting guy. He’ll give you his username, password. He’ll make you an account executive in go daddy or something like that and you’ll have to handle there everything. So make sure you do have a little bit of experience there and a little bit of a plan. Maybe even do just a couple of tests in migrations before hand. Just so that you can kinda know what’s going on.

J: You’re gonna get it really easy for your buyers so there.

T: And you guys said you had a post on this so if you just email me the link to that post I’ll make sure that link goes on to the blog post page that’s gonna house this podcast and anyone will be able to get right through with it.

J: Cool man sounds good. We’ll do.

T: Okay so at this point I think I wanna move on past the auction because obviously we’re just about done here and talk just a little tiny bit about keyword research. I know you guys mentioned you like to use long tail pro. Have you ever used SECockpit?

J: Haven’t but some of our readers have mentioned to us like raving about it. I know that it’s a much higher fee but how important keyword research is to us I don’t even care so I don’t wanna need to know it’s an issue. It takes $75 a month, isn’t it?

T: It is. It is definitely the most expensive keyword research tool on the planet but there’s a reason.

J: What do you think? You’ve used it too?

T: Yeah I would not be in this business without that tool and I’m not taking away from Spencer’s tool coz keep in mind Spencer’s about 1/12 of the price of SECockpit is. But the big difference is this. Spencer’s tool, long tail pro, and market samurai and pretty much everything else is basically a desktop application. And by the very nature of being a desktop application they can only go so fast. Spencer’s like market samurai you could put in one seed keyword at a time. And it would then return to you from the Google result anywhere from 5 – 800 related keywords. But it has not done SEO analysis on any of those keywords. So you can filter them and say well show me keywords that meet this criteria for CPC and this criteria for search volume and this criteria for in title competition and so forth and maybe you’re left with a hundred words but you still have no idea which of those words are the low hanging fruit. Spencer’s tool you could do 5 at a time which definitely makes it a whole lot better. You can, if I remember correctly, you can only do SEO competition for 1 keyphrase at a time.

J: That’s correct.

T: So with SECockpit here’s how it works. And then it’s literally hundreds of times faster. SECockpit is a server based tool so therefore I’m not limited by my own IP hitting Google over and over and over again which is obviously something that you don’t wanna do and that’s why these other tools are built the way they’re built. So with SECockpit I could put in conceivably say 20 different seed keywords at a time. It is automatically, let’s just deal with one at a time. If you put in one seed keyword it’s just gonna go just like every other tool and get you your 800 related results or how many hundreds they’re gonna be. Now the next thing that I do that I love so much is I just put in what’s called adsense value filter. And all I’m looking for is an individual keyword that based upon a certain set of assumptions has the ability mathematically if I rank no. 1 for to make me a $ a day.

J: You can do that term by setting or is it set by them?

T: It is totally customizable.

J: That’s cool.

T: In my training videos within Niche Site Mastery I teach people exactly how to do this. And this is how I’ve outsourced keyword research to my VA by the way that works really well. So we don’t filter by search volume and we don’t filter by CPC because it’s a dynamic relationship between those two. You can have a very low search volume with super high CPC. Great! That would work. You can really have a really high search volume with low CPC that would work. So you can’t hard code or hard filter on either one of those because you’re gonna be missing opportunities. I wanna filter on the relationship between those two and SECockpit allows me to do that. But that’s not even the coolest part of all things. Here’s the really cool part. So let’s say that my 800 words is now down to like a 150 words or a 100 words. The SEO analysis it’s all done, already all done. So with those desktop tools where you still don’t have a clue about what’s the low hanging fruit SECockpit has already gone and analyzed the top 10 competitors for those 150 like when it returns 800 words the SEO analysis on 800 words is already all done.

J: So you’re talking about first page analysis has already been done for you automatically, right? How does it know that your process, coz everyone’s process is gonna be a little bid different, how does it know that your process is going to work for their particular SEO competition rating?

T: Well their SEO competition rating, when I say when the SEO analysis is done data is all retrieved. I’ve got, I know what the mozrank is of the top 10 pages, I know how much domain authority they have, I know how many backlinks they have, I know if the keyword is used in the title, I can see the URL. So I, and it’s all color coded much like market samurai is color coded so it’s very easy for the visuals. So let’s say let’s go back, you put the seed keyword in, you do your adsense value filter so at 800 maybe now down to a 150. I then simply sort by the SEO competition column and I’m presented with what is considered to be by SECockpit’s guidelines the lowest hanging fruit in terms of SEO competition. I just double click it and right away I’m able to see okay there’s the top 10 results and oh look I can see that 3 or 4 of the top 10 have a mozrank of less than 3 so that box is green. I can see exactly how many backlinks to each of the pages in the top 10. I can very quickly look at the title of each page and see well are these pages actually targeting my keyword or did Google just kind of stuff them in there because they couldn’t figure out anything else. So I will tell you it makes finding keywords really easy.

J: Trent that’s funny. That’s the only piece in the process that we don’t send to our agents so what we do right now is we have agents that find the keywords via long tail pro. And then let’s say they’ll give us around 200 every week, right? And then Joe and I will go to this 200 and narrow it down to somewhere between 25 and 40 depending on the week and how many keywords we’re gonna pick up. I think what this would do for us is that that 200 we get might be a more finely tuned 200. We may have more options in there out for us. We may not need to get a 100 there, really good ones based on parameters that we set.

J: Or maybe that means we just pick up more keywords.

T: And that’s honestly guys that’s exactly what I do so my VA returns to me a list and he just stores this folder within SECockpit of what we call shortlist keywords. And I look at them and I go “yes, yes, yes, no, no yes, yes, no, no”. Done.

J: Yeah. That’s the one piece though that I think no matter how good they get you still have to review the first page yourself and make it yourself. We still haven’t found a way around that unfortunately. But that’s just I mean if that’s all I have to do that’s pretty easy.

J: Yeah you have to have final say with those keywords because that’s the start of the machine. If you feed the machine the wrong stuff then it’s gonna come crap out of it.

T: Absolutely and that is so incredibly important. With that I’m gonna actually pull back the kimono. I did a beta product launch just last Friday for Niche Site Mastery members only. I’ve never blogged about it. No one, the people listening to this podcast who are not yet Niche Site Mastery members are gonna be the first ever to hear of this. With Niche Site Mastery the training is very, very good. It teaches you how to do everything. It’s got all these videos. It’s fantastic. But I still saw a painful point for my members. And that was the fact that they still had to go out and do their own keyword research, digging around and digging takes time. They still had to find their own VA. They still had to train their own VA. They still had to subscribe to all these other pieces of pieces of software which was somewhat gonna be expensive for them to do generally about $2 – $300 a month worth of backlinking software, keyword research software and so forth. And so I created in beta what’s called a done for you VA service where they are just paying Niche Site Mastery one flat fee per month so their overhead is cut down by about 60% from doing it on their own. They don’t have to find a VA. They don’t have to train the VA. I’ve got a ticketing system. Everything happens super smooth so far it’s going fantastically well. But the one thing and again this is my point, the one thing that I have stressed over and over with my members is even though the VAs go out and find these keywords and they present them to you. At the end of the day you still own the decision on whether to approve that keyword or not. And so that is a skill that you absolutely must have. You can get other people to do the leg work and present you with “hey here’s the 5 that meet your criteria, which one do you want?” And if you don’t want the way I did it with beta, each person signed up is gonna be buying 10 basically completed sites so they would get 10 keywords. If they don’t like one of those keywords just send it back. Say I don’t want that, give me another one. So the VA team would go back and find them another one.

So I agree completely with you guys that I’m never gonna give up the final decision process. I don’t think my members should do that either. But I wanna have the minimum amount of my time involved in approving those keywords. And again these are keywords predominantly for sites that I am probably going to be selling at some point in the future. If I wanna start building a portfolio of sites that I know are gonna be a 100 to 300 page sites or more I may go out and do that keyword research on my own because I may choose to find phrases that are a little bit more difficult to rank for and I’m willing to accept that.

J: Yeah more aggressive.

T: More aggressive and the decision process is more subjective that I acquired these skills to make that decision process by building lots and lots of sites which kind of brings us full circle to the beginning of the podcast of your quality is gonna be the result of your quantity, and your skills and your experience and your success ultimately is only going to come after you’ve had your mulligans and your donkeys and you’ve done this enough times.

Alright guys we’re an hour and 3 minutes so it’s time to close the curtain on this episode of the podcast. So on the show Justin and Joe from Adsense Flippers. You guys have been fantastic. This has been a super fun podcast. I really wanna thank you for being on the show. If there is one final comment and you can keep it brief I give you chance to make it right now. Go and if not.

J: Well guys thanks a lot for having us in the program Trent, we really appreciate it. You can check out our process. Check out adsenseflippers.com or check out the Adsense Flippers podcasts and we’d love to have you as listeners on the show as well.

J: Yeah. I just want to say merry Christmas and happy new year to everyone. Check out the buy our sites page. We’re always putting new sites up there. We’re having a bunch of new features there. It’s becoming a real marketplace, a stock market for adsense that drive revenue generating sites.

T: Alright gentlemen again thank you very much for being on the show and listeners if you are listening to this in your car again you can get to this particular episode at onlineincomelab.com/session017. If you’re listening to this on iTunes I would love it if you would take a moment to give the show some feedback and rating of some kind because that’s what brings the show and gets more recognition and more people listening and more people get to hear this wonderful opportunity that there is to make money online. And if you’re interested in learning and getting access to the training that I provide you can do that at nichesitemastery.com. You can get yourself a 7 day trial for all of $5 and there’s a 60 day money back guarantee. So you really don’t have anything to lose. So with that said this is gonna wrap up the final episode of the year 2011. And I will be back next year with a whole bunch more guests, some repeat guests and as much quality information in as I can send you with

So thank you very much. Have a terrific day, terrific holidays and we’ll talk to you again soon.